After 30 years as a humanitarian, Josephine Hutton is an optimist.  

From her first job in the humanitarian and development sector in the 90s working for AusAID (the former Australian government agency for international aid and development), Jo went on to work in humanitarian leadership roles across the globe. 

From Iraq and Kosovo to Palestine and Sri Lanka, she has worked in conflict zones, a tsunami response and everything in between, and currently leads Oxfam Australia’s international programs.  

And despite the challenges, her optimism for positive change has only grown. 

Jo is a valued member of the RedR Australia family. She joined us as an associate trainer in 2002, and she has served on our board twice—first from 2011-2012, and again from 2024 to the present. 

In this episode, Jo chats with Sally about the challenges of working in conflict zones, the dangers of decision paralysis, and the importance of having difficult conversations. 

She explains why she’s continued to train on RedR Australia’s courses for more than two decades, and she shares wise counsel on when to give advice—and when to simply listen. 

Host: Sally Cunningham 

Guest: Josephine Hutton 

Producer, engineer and composer: Jill Farrar 

You can join our conversations on LinkedIn and Facebook. 

You can find out more about RedR Australia’s training courses here. 

Transcript 

SALLY: Humanitarian Conversations is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and we acknowledge and seek to champion the continued connection of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples to land, waterways and skies. We also pay our respects to all First Nations, people whose communities we work in across the world. Hello and welcome to Humanitarian Conversations, a RedR Australia podcast which explores what it means to be humanitarian in today's world. I'm Sally Cunningham. Today we're chatting with Josephine Hutton on Humanitarian Conversations. Jo is a deeply experienced humanitarian with 30 years working as a manager and leader. Hailing from Melbourne, Jo has worked with institutional donors, international organisations and NGOs across the globe in a range of complex and vulnerable settings. Jo has deployed into conflict zones in Iraq, Kosovo and Liberia, and managed teams in Palestine and Yemen. She also established humanitarian operations in Macedonia in response to the Kosovo crisis and led a field team in Sri Lanka after the Indian Ocean tsunami. Jo's career has been recognised with the Medal of the Order of Australia for her humanitarian leadership. We're lucky to have had Jo in the RedR Australia family since 2002 when she joined us as a trainer, developer of training content and training coordinator. Today, Jo also serves on our board while she works in her role as Executive Lead—International Programs at Oxfam Australia. Jo, welcome to Humanitarian Conversations. 

JO: Thanks Sally.   

SALLY: You started working for AusAID in the 90s. What drew you to the sector initially? 

JO: I think part of it was I was raised living internationally, and got to see firsthand the experiences of different contexts, awareness of inequality I guess, the joy of living and working in other cultures and communities, but also understanding the differences, etc. So I think that's part of it in terms of my childhood, and then in my schooling, there was somewhat of a focus on social justice issues. And it was a big time of political upheaval. It seems like it is quite often. But for then, it was sort of apartheid and growing in environmental climate justice awareness, although we didn't call it that. So I think that was just growing in me as a teenager, and then university I think really bred that out for me in terms of understanding the broader issues at play in the world. So it sort of became a big desire of mine to be involved somehow in work that was contributing to meaningful ends, to social justice, to changed inequality. That's kind of the general path they came to and then was lucky enough to get an early job as a young person in AusAID, which was a great leaping off point for me. 

SALLY: Yeah, I think that's a really good foundation for this sector. And given that depth of experience, what have you noticed as big changes from those early days up until more recent times and experiences. 

JO: Yeah, so much change. I think because I started working for federal government first, I guess my perspective might be a bit different to some, but it was very interesting to see that there was a limited professional sphere of humanitarians at federal government at that stage. And so an early experience for me, which I think really kick started me, was working in Papua New Guinea during a prolonged drought, dry spell, and then food shortages, and just realising that actually we weren't quite set up for that in terms of the tools, the understanding, the background as the Australian staff there, and that we were all kind of learning a lot, and we worked very closely with the military. So I think early on, I would say it was definitely a growing profession, but I would say it was a smaller number of agencies and perhaps less people. And for me, I've seen such a dramatic change in that so much more skills training, people who've chosen this as a path and professionalised in it from all walks of life. I think a lot of people fell into it more when I first started. It was like, Wow, what an amazing experience. I could do something and put my skills in. Now there's people who I think start on that path, and it's their passion. So I think that's a big thing that I've seen. Other things that I've really seen is so much more focus on local leadership and voice. In the early days when I worked, that wasn't the highest priority for us. Yeah, there was consultation. I think people are probably too harsh when they say there wasn't. There was consultation, but it was more around the logistics and operations of humanitarian work, less around understanding different needs, looking at vulnerabilities, how we're accountable. There's also been massive change in the professionalisation in lots of countries as well. So for me, Indonesia is a great example. I think I was involved from very early days there in responses, and partly in relation to the Indian Ocean tsunami, and then seeing over time that Indonesia has incredibly professionalised response, structured through all levels of government, decentralised approaches, and they really don't engage the international community anymore, which is as it should be. And there's just much more understanding of how this needs to work, and that's not how it started. So there's still a perception from lots of people, some in the sector, but maybe more outside the sector, that somehow external or international solutions are the answer. And in fact, that's absolutely not the model. And we say this a lot in RedR trainings, actually, we talk a lot about how really the prime responders are the local community first. They will always be the first, as they are in our own country. If we have a bush fire, the prime responders are our community. It's the same everywhere else. So this perception that there's a heavy reliance on an international system and logistics to respond is incorrect, and also this perception that we have all the right solutions is also really incorrect, and we've worked hard to change that, but I think there are still people who have an image of the sort of saviour approach, but that's changed a lot. 

SALLY: And they're good conversations to have. So you have also worked in conflict zones in Iraq, Kosovo and Liberia, and managed teams in Palestine and Yemen. Can you think of any specific challenges that arose that you weren't expecting when you first landed in these conflict zones? 

JO: Yeah, I think every single one of them provided a massive learning curve. Even when I was experienced, it was still a massive growth. A couple of examples come to mind. One was I took on the role of being a regional manager for Oxfam in the Middle East, and I'd been in the job about a month when the war broke out in Yemen. Certainly wasn't expecting that, nonetheless dealt with it. But I think what was very unexpected was almost immediately having to deal with a mass evacuation of the staff and a dramatic change to operations, and dealing with the stress of that was actually more than I think I had imagined, because most of them had a lot of survivor guilt about abandoning their colleagues. So this is mostly the international staff, as well as some staff in the field who had to withdraw. So that was quite tricky, and some of them didn't want to go. And it was very difficult. I think also that was a really big learning experience for me, the first time of being a parent of young children and actually feeling fear for my children. For the first time like, something might happen to me, and I had not really had that before, because since they'd been born, I hadn't really gone to many tricky places. But I landed in Sanaa, and I actually wrote my kids a letter because they were quite young. They were four and six, and I wrote them a letter because I thought, I have no idea what's going to happen. This is a place that has active bombing every single day in this city that I'm landing in. I think I'm going to be fine, but I might not be, and I want them to understand the choices that I've made and what I'm trying to do and contribute to the world. So I sat in an airport and wrote them a letter, which was awful and very unexpected. I think I'd been quite firm about that before. I was like, it's fine. You know, you have to be able to laugh, but you also have to be able to manage difficult circumstances in this field of work. And I think prior to that, I'd been more like I was made of rubber or something. And I think suddenly it was like, Oh no, I'm a big squishy marshmallow. And actually, I really worried about what this might mean for my kids. We were bombed one night, and we had to all go to the basement. And the next morning, the security guard comes to me and hands me a piece of hot shrapnel and says to me, This is from the bombing last night. It was just there in front of the front door. I thought you might want to feel it because it's still hot. And a few years later, I showed my kids and explained it to them. So the other one that comes to mind is I worked in the former Yugoslavia, and I remember experiencing a lot of not the first time, but certainly the first time I was really conscious of the level of hostility and suspicion of international organisations. You know, we felt like we were doing really important things, and we were bearing witness, which was really an important role, and all of that. But actually, for the authorities, we were very suspicious. And facing the disgruntlement and wrath at checkpoints and the heavy questioning was a new experience for me, and still trying to feel justified in that, and we're doing the right thing, we're reporting, and we're trying to uncover and understand what's happening—atrocities in villages. But we're not wanted here, really, by some people. However, the other group really wants us here to bear witness, because they feel invisible. So I think those are two experiences that were very confronting and unexpected, even if theoretically I knew they could happen, I hadn't experienced them or been prepared. 

SALLY: Yeah, and have to tap into areas of bravery that you aren't expecting. Letters to your children, that's quite a mental and emotional process. 

JO: Oh yeah. A couple of years ago, I found it in cleaning up my files, as we all do occasionally, was like, Oh, I couldn't read it. It actually felt very hard to read. Made me very teary. It was hard to see that letter again and go, Oh, I remember how fearful I was, getting on a plane going, I'm actually, genuinely nervous. 

SALLY: So I imagine all of that compounds to great experience that would inform how you behave and making decisions about where to go in the future. So how did this impact your future work? 

JO: I think some of those experiences made me think a lot more about the risks taken every day by colleagues, and it certainly highlighted for me, and I would say, particularly Yemen highlighted the incredible risk that the Yemeni staff faced much more than all of us [international staff]. So for me, it felt very threatening as a foreigner coming in. But when I thought every day about how the Yemeni staff, which in most countries, the staff of the country, the national staff, are, you know, 95% or 99% of the people who are putting their lives at risk every day, even though I again, I knew that in theory. But to be sitting there in the office talking to them, talking to the drivers, and realise they are the ones absolutely on the front line. And in fact, our job, and I'm glad there's a big move on it now, is to really look at protecting the staff, humanitarian workers in the field, because the risks have only increased in the last few years. It's a dangerous business and what more can we do to protect them? Because their work is incredible and life saving, and they put their lives at risk every day, and there's been far too many killed in the last few years. 

SALLY: Yeah, absolutely. Did you want to talk about being a woman in those zones? 

JO: Yeah, so really interesting. I often think about this, because when I first started out, by far the majority of the staff I worked with were men. Although, interestingly, in Liberia I was Country Director for Oxfam in Liberia. We often joked about making a film, because people who work as humanitarians often think that there's good content for an amazing, you know, documentary or film. And the reason we say that is because three quarters of the other country directors of international NGOs were all women, and this is more than 20 years ago. So it was incredible. And so of course, it was like the sisterhood at the time, supporting each other. We used to have nights where we would sit down and tell all the horrible, difficult stories of the day just to get through because we were like each other's comrades when you don't have anyone else you can share all that really difficult stuff with. But I would still say, in many countries today, still the majority of staff working in organisations who are doing developmental humanitarian work, a majority are male, and that is interesting, because it really means we have to think a lot about how we are perceived, how we're able to take into account different needs. What does it mean in terms of how we design programs and work with communities—are all the voices being heard? So I think it's a big 'work in progress' for us. I think we've come a long way, still a long way to go. 

SALLY: Fair enough. So obviously locally led approaches are really important to you, and that's something you've taken on board, which is great. So how has the theme of locally led approaches impacted humanitarian and development practice, perhaps more on the theory and best practice side of things. 

JO: I think it's had a really significant impact. The idea of consulting people and engaging community was probably always there. But I think the big evolution of actually saying it's not really about consultation—that still holds a lot of power, that's still kind of top down, a bit colonial. It's actually their community, their response. We're walking on the journey with them, if they want us to, but they have to be able to lead. And I have seen that change a lot. As you'd find these big emergencies where people turned up en mass—had never been there before and are suddenly making choices on what kinds of items people need, what sort of housing is appropriate, which community...  

SALLY: Sounds like a nightmare. 

JO: Right? Yeah, and now that is so much less the case. So in most cases, there's been already a long history of people working with communities, like making space to enable them to plan and prioritise what's important for them and then build the response on that. We've come a long way. Still a long way to go—there's not a simple solution or simple answer to 'What does locally led look like?' But primarily, it's those who are most affected have the greatest choice and the greatest power and ownership to design and run the response and that we accompany them on that journey. 

SALLY: And be nimble. 

JO: Yeah, and call ourselves out. So this is the thing I talk a lot about with people, is if we really want to be accountable, that involves us being willing to have difficult conversations, even internally in organisations and across the sector. And not just using fantastic statements that sound really inspiring, but actually, when you scratch the surface, you go, is that really being implemented like that? So I think we have to be brave enough to have the conversations to say, we say we're transferring power. We say that we're letting communities lead. We say that we're supporting national organisations. Are we really? What's that look like? How much have we really done that? I'm always keen to hear when people are willing to have the hard conversations—how can we change and how can we change the system itself? Because we're in a system which still carries a lot of weight of where power sits and funding sits and choices are made. So how can we change that system? How can we have conversations with institutional donors or philanthropic organisations to say maybe we need to change the energy of the nature of funding?   

SALLY: Good advice. So let's shift to another, more modern approach to humanitarian and development work when we think about inclusion. So what does meaningful inclusion look like in your experience, in your work? 

JO: True inclusion affects all aspects of your work. So it's not just, did you get to have a say? It's, Were you part of decision making? Were you driving planning? I think that also we have to keep examining who's got the power to make the decision. So if you've just given people a voice, but still have no actual decision-making power, we haven't quite made that leap. Particularly marginalised groups or people of different sexual orientation and gender identity. Those are groups who still don't have a lot of space in a lot of our programing, and ethnic minorities often don't as well. 

SALLY: So meaningful inclusion: work in progress? 

JO: Yes, still work in progress. But again, I'm an optimist. I think we've come a long way. I've seen this over 30 years, so I can tell you we are so far from where we were. So those who are very cynical, I say it's very easy to be a cynic. It's much harder to be a true believer and optimist. But cynics rarely change the world. You have to still believe. And I've seen the change myself. I have seen a massive step up. So I think we can keep going. I think we can keep getting better all the time. 

SALLY: Absolutely. And like you said, having those difficult conversations, don't shy away from that. 

JO: Don't shy away. Don't shy away—and don't congratulate yourself too early and say, Oh, we've nailed it. Look at us. Actually, great. You've made some strides. What are the areas we still have to work on?  

SALLY: Yeah, what next? This is a tough one as well. We're just diving in the deep end here. So what's the importance of addressing gender-based violence in humanitarian settings? 

JO: I think it's a really critical thing. I think that gender-based violence itself, it's, in a sense, a global epidemic anyway. One in three women have experienced some sort of violence, so it's something that's there all the time. We as humanitarians have to be really, really aware of what we're doing, and part of that is understanding that our programs can do harm too. Sometimes crisis can also be a catalyst for significant social change. This was a case certainly in OCHA after the tsunami—there was a lot of evidence to show that it did shift the roles of women and girls in their community, the things they could take on. So I think how can we use this devastation or change or chronic circumstance to actually shift the norms. We're getting a lot better, but it must be there all the time. It can't be a delightful add-on that you think when you've got time that you go, Oh, we'll get to that if we have time. No, no, it's fundamental in everything we do. And I think that investing in the organisations in the country that are actually going to keep that fight going, whether they're women's rights organisations, whether they're service providers, whether they're health sector, that actually they are the ones who'll provide the infrastructure and framework and provide the support. So our job is to support them, invest in them. They are the quiet ones that will be making the change. And in fact, lots of research shows that feminist organisations are the ones that actually lead to significant change in their country. They're pushing for it. Luckily, lots of donors, like the Australian government, are very supportive of that, and are happy to see that in your programing. 

SALLY: And it makes a difference.  

JO: It does. 

SALLY: So given your depth of experience, you've worked in a number of leadership roles for NGOs, such as Oxfam Great Britain, Care and now Oxfam Australia. What are some key qualities you feel are needed by coordinators and leaders? 

JO: This is one I think about a lot, and I know I myself have changed a lot. I probably am embarrassed and am ablush sometimes, when I think of the kind of person I was when I first started out. This sector tends to attract a certain kind of person, particularly humanitarian work, who are people who want to get things done. They're driven by trying to achieve things in difficult circumstances—coordinating, being effective. And sometimes that means people play a slightly secondary role. And I look back at myself and think, Gosh, I've come on such a journey. Because I think now where I sit is that I think to be a good leader, manager, coordinator, someone in a position of power, connecting to the people is the most important thing you can do. And you have to have a high degree of kindness and level of empathy— not one that's going to debilitate you—but I think if you're not listening to your team or the community that you're working with, the rest of it doesn't really matter that much. I think another one that I have really noticed is people do want a degree of stability and calm from their leader. I think they need to know that when the proverbial hits the fan, you're going to hold it for them, you're going to hold the space. And that's something I think I've really learned a lot over the years, is you have to be the calm voice of reason and stability too. I'm an energetic person, and I think people do need leaders who have some degree of energy. They want to feel enthused and energised, but you also have to have a quietness at times, so that people know you're holding the space and the calm as well, because they can see all the changes in the chaos, and they want to make sure someone's holding the boat. I feel like I've changed so much as a person when I think of myself when I was 27 and leading a big humanitarian response. And it was all about, go, go, go, get things done. We have to move. We have to achieve this. Outputs, outputs, outputs. And now I'm like, Okay, wait a minute. Really, really, got to focus on the people in the team, because without them, the rest of it doesn't matter that much. I mean, it's really important, but you won't have an impact, and you'll burn people up and knock them to the side on your fiery path. 

SALLY: Yeah, but that's growth, isn't it? Right? And leadership is not a one size fits all. So the idea of empathy and reflection is really good advice. You got to forgive yourself for things that have gone not the best, but you learn to live in the okays. 

JO: You do, because paralysis is really, really difficult for everybody. Paralysis about decision making is probably more dangerous than anything else. I often say to people that, for me, a decision is the catalyst. It might not be the right decision, but making a decision to move towards something will shift the energy, and then you can decide, do I want to go that way or that way? Oh, that wasn't such a great call. Let me try this. But not making a decision leaves you in this paralysed middle ground where you can't go one way or the other, and if you worry too much about the right decision. The other one that I was just remembering is, years ago I when I started to really focus on how can I be a better manager or leader, I did some really great training. And one of the lines that stuck with me the most from this training, and I use it all the time, is 'advice is almost always most satisfying to the giver'. We love to give advice. We love to solve people's problems, project manage their issues. Actually, most of the time, people aren't asking for that. They want to be listened to. So if you stop yourself from immediately giving advice and going, let me listen first, then let me actually ask them. Say, do you want advice? Are you looking for me to help you? Then they have a choice. They can say, actually, I'm really stuck. I don't know what to do in this circumstance. I would value your experience, opinion, wisdom, whatever. Great, happy to give it to you. But a lot of times people are like, Nope, I actually just need to vent. I just need to share the pain that I'm experiencing right now. I wasn't looking for any advice. I didn't need you to fix it for me, but we jumped so quickly to fixing things because it's really satisfying to us to fix everybody's problems. So that was a great piece of advice, and it stopped me many a time, now going, hold your thought. Hold your thought. Don't give the answer. Ask more questions, listen more then say, Do you want that? 

SALLY: I think that's probably very relatable for everybody. 

JO: For life! Oh, for life, for sure, everywhere, yes, definitely. 

SALLY: And I have to say, once again, you've segued wonderfully to training. So you're killing it. So you've been a trainer on RedR Australia's courses for a long time. Thanks for your incredible service. What keeps you coming back? 

JO: Quite honestly, I really love it. I genuinely love it. It is the combination of things. I think one of them is I absolutely cherish the diversity of people that attend and my chance to mix with them and be part of their journey. I can give just this last year two examples of RedR training. One was most recently in Melbourne. We did our first non-residential course of the Essentials of Humanitarian Practice, and we had some university students. Super smart, enthused, engaged, lots of questions. Really wanted to experientially learn everything. Last year I did the course in Fiji, and there, our attendees were 95% maybe 100% professionals, many of them middle- and senior-level professionals in their field working in their own countries in the Pacific. So they were senior disaster managers or engineers, and they were also amazing because they had depth of experience and knowledge, but still were learning so much and loving the chance to mingle with other professionals. So for me, that's a huge part of the joy is all the people that I get to meet, the journey that they're on, and so to be able to be with them to reflect on the journey the humanitarian sector has been on, how we've changed, how we've bettered ourselves. I think that's what a lot of them say when they enjoy the training too. They say, learning from the experiences and the mistakes and the good things. 

SALLY: And the feedback we get, there's always reference to input from the trainers with their personal experiences from the field. It's always mentioned that adds such great value and learning.   

JO: Sometimes we have like, 200 years of experience in the room between eight trainers or six trainers. They can bring all that to bear, which I think is very beneficial.    

SALLY: Yeah. 

JO: It's so fun.  

SALLY: It is.  

JO: I also really enjoy it, because often my fellow trainers are just great professionals. We all have different styles, so that's also really fun as well. 

SALLY: It's not just the dressing up, is it. 

JO: Not just the dressing up. But that is quite fun. 

SALLY: I've seen that costume cupboard. So what advice would you give to anyone new to the sector or wanting to steer their career in this direction? Apart from doing RedR Australia training. 

JO: I think what I often say to people is, look really hard in your heart as to what the intrinsic motivation here is, because we have to be driven by a rights approach. Our job has to be because we are trying to be champions for rights and for justice. If that's not where you're coming from, maybe have a think like, what else your motivations are? Because if we don't have that somewhere at our core, then I think question that. The second thing I would say is, assume that the primary role for people to be involved in this sector—and especially if it involves going to other countries—is we have to be technical specialists. We have to have something pretty good to offer that is hard to get in that country, or that significantly enhances or supports the capability in that country. So something where you have a specific skill set which might be lacking, because that will always be a needed thing. So learn from other people, and think about the whole breadth of possibilities that there are in the sector, and how you might be able to contribute. 

SALLY: Really good advice. Jo, thank you so much for joining us today and having this insightful conversation. You've given me a lot to think about. Having difficult conversations is always constructive. That's my key takeaway. 

JO: Always constructive. Thanks very much for the for the chance, Sally. Fun chatting with you. 

SALLY: You've been listening to Humanitarian Conversations, a podcast by RedR Australia. You can learn more about our work at redr.org.au and we invite you to join our conversations on LinkedIn and Facebook. But don't stop there. If this has got your mind thinking about what it means to be a humanitarian, we encourage you to continue that conversation with friends and family. This episode was produced and engineered by Jill Farrar. I'm Sally Cunningham. Thanks for listening.