Podcast Ep 11: Who is a civilian. Do you really know?

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SALLY: This Humanitarian Conversations podcast was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, also known as Melbourne, Australia. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and we acknowledge and seek to champion the continued connection of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples to land, waterways and skies. And we pay our respects to all First Nations people whose communities we work in across the world. Hello and welcome to Humanitarian Conversations, a RedR Australia podcast which explores what it means to be humanitarian in today's world. I'm Sally Cunningham. Today we have an extra-special episode of Humanitarian Conversations. As you may know, RedR Australia’s CEO Dr. Helen Durham is an internationally recognised expert in international humanitarian law, otherwise known as IHL. Helen has held many notable positions in this area of law—including Director of International Law and Policy at the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva—and she currently serves on the Board for international legal NGO, Geneva Call. This unique organisation works with armed groups and de facto authorities to help protect civilians in times of armed conflicts around the world. In this special episode, Helen interviews international lawyer, Firouzeh. Firouzeh is also an expert in IHL and Human Rights Law. She’s worked for Geneva Call since 2018 and is currently the country director for Myanmar. In this thought-provoking chat, Firouzeh and Helen discuss the current crisis in Myanmar and how Geneva Call is working to protect vulnerable civilians. Following this, Helen and I also chat about the importance of IHL during today’s conflicts, and what all humanitarian and development workers should know about IHL. But first, let’s hear from Helen and Firouzeh.

HELEN: I wanted to start first with a big question. What is Geneva Call and what does it do globally?

FIROUZEH: So Geneva Call is a Swiss humanitarian organisation. We're working to promote the protection of civilians that are affected by conflict, and the main way that we do this is by promoting international humanitarian norms. So by this we mean international humanitarian law, as well as international human rights law that is applicable during conflict. And we're a bit unusual because our main target groups are armed groups and de facto authorities. So really focusing on the groups that might be left out from these kinds of IHL promotion activities.

HELEN: Excellent. So you specifically play a leadership role in Myanmar. Before we go into what you do, could you give the audience a bit of an understanding of the context of Myanmar today?

FIROUZEH: So Myanmar has had a long history of conflict going back many, many decades now, and it's primarily been seen as an ethnic conflict. So conflict between different ethnic groups against the majority rule. However, this had quite a shift in 2021 when there was a military coup, and now the conflict’s really spread from primarily ethnic border areas to across the whole country. So we're now seeing the whole population affected in some way by different waves of conflict, and hundreds and hundreds, if not sometimes thousands, of armed groups acting against the state administration council as well as against each other.

HELEN: Wow, okay. So it sounds like a very complex situation. So in this situation, what is the aim of Geneva Call?

FIROUZEH: So what Geneva Call is trying to do in this context is really to make sure the combatants know what is the right behavior and wrong behavior. What they can do to protect civilians, and what kind of behaviour that they may do which will harm civilians. So it's very basic promotion of the conduct of hostilities—the main IHL rules. But we also work on when there's certain authorities that might start controlling populations. So with them, we talk more about their human rights obligations. We say, you have an obligation to protect the children in your areas of control. You have an obligation to make sure people are not victims of sexual violence. And what's becoming a very hot topic now in Myanmar is there's many hundreds, if not thousands, that are getting detained. So they sometimes refer to them as prisoners of war, but then we also say that you also have an obligation against those individuals. You need to protect them. You need to treat them humanely. So it's very much about making sure that you can carry out your warfare, but you need to do so with the perspective of the protection of civilians.

HELEN: Excellent. And I think it's really great to hear Geneva Call taking on the issue of detainees, because I think sometimes we have a debate, and we really do juxtapose those who are fighting, and as you mentioned before called combatants, and the civilians. But as we both know, there's a lot of civilians that are often caught up—either they're fighting for survival or they're dragged into these groups. And so ensuring that detainees are treated humanely is more than prisoners of war discourse. It's about supporting the communities. Is that your experience?

FIROUZEH: Yes, definitely. And I think it's a big issue also in Myanmar—that people are wrongly accused of directly participating in hostilities, especially the civilians that might be seen as supporting one side or the other side. So the actual detainees are a mixture of civilians that are pure—still considered as civilians, or should be considered as civilians—as well as those that might be the injured soldiers or those that have surrendered. So we're really trying to put in this mentality that these people are all civilian persons. At this point, they don't pose a military threat to you, and they should be treated well.

HELEN: That's so important to hear. Just to back up a bit, I think for some of the people listening, this term ‘direct participation in hostilities’; for those of us that are I would say laws-of-war nerds, that means a lot, because the only definition of civilians is that they don't directly participate in hostilities. So I think this blurring, which is often not understood in wider contexts, about someone, as you said, who's identified as participating in hostilities. Perhaps all they've done is fed a community that are involved in the fighting. Is that your experience—this blurring of what does it mean to directly participate in hostilities?

FIROUZEH: It comes down to the question of who is a civilian. We spend sometimes a full day of a training just debating who is considered a civilian. And it's not a widely accepted notion. You would think it would be quite a simple topic. You would say, okay, a civilian is someone in the community. It's your mother, it's your daughter, it's your son, maybe. But in this context, they really have a polarisation of the conflict, and where it is seen that, okay, anything that you do, even if you just mentally support the other side, you're somehow a traitor to the cause, and then you might be then attacked accordingly. So bringing it back to: no, we're talking about those that are posing some kind of military threat to you, either by fighting directly or involved in some kind of military intelligence gathering. But for the majority of cases, that's not what is happening. It's really civilians that have been mistakenly accused of this.

HELEN: Okay, so let me step this back a bit. You've got an extremely complex conflict. I think you mentioned before, did you say up to 1000 groups? So you've got almost a splintering of the groups fighting. You've got lack of clarity about who is a civilian due to this broader understanding of what directly participating in hostilities means in this context. What impact does Geneva Call have? I strongly believe there are always things we can do to make the world a better place. But it could be easy to be cynical and say, ‘Well, what does talking to these groups actually achieve?’

FIROUZEH: The main argument that we use to try convince them is to say that you want to be seen as a professional army. In order to be seen as a professional army, you need to follow the rules of IHL. That's the basic starting point for the engagement. And I think really bringing in this mentality and relating it back to themselves, of how they want to be treated. So they quite often will have experienced themselves, of being tortured in custody, poorly treated while detained, which they know themselves as wrong, but then when you put that to the other side, then you have to say, well, it goes both ways. The obligations are also for each of you. So I think one of the main successes that we've had in the last few years is really the groups now saying that they're no longer killing the soldiers that are surrendering that they're capturing, but they're now detaining them. Yes, that creates new issues, but we at least see that that's success, that they're starting to see the humaneness, or as much humaneness of the conflict that there can be.

HELEN: That’s excellent to hear. I think, as you say, that would create other issues, but at the end of the day you're saving lives, and at the end of the day—and this is why I have such a deep respect for Geneva Call and I'm so honored myself to be on the board—this idea that even groups that most people think are untouchable, you can't talk with, there's nothing you can do; that you can have a dialogue, and you can find that essence of humanity and lean into that and try and get them to change their practices. Has that been your experience?

FIROUZEH: I think, not just in Myanmar, but the other contexts that I've worked in with Geneva Call, I think you can always find that connection with the groups. I think there's a misconception that you might have from an outside perspective, that, as you mentioned, that these groups—why would they bother listening to us? Why would they care? But for the most part of my career with Geneva Call, there has been this openness. And whether that's some kind of international legitimacy angle that they want, although that's not what we do as Geneva Call, but you know, having some connection to an international organisation can be quite powerful. Or if it's about reminding them that the local community needs to be protected and that's what you're fighting for—to protect your local community. So I think there's always a different angle that you can take with the group and find some commonality between what the law is trying to achieve and what the groups are also trying to achieve.

HELEN: Yes, and I know from a RedR perspective, at RedR Australia we've deployed [into Myanmar] up to 25 individuals in the last number of years, experts to be able to work in community, to make a range of support through UN agencies and others. You've got to keep engaging, particularly if you want to protect the civilian population. So on that topic, you're obviously an international lawyer, and I just wondered whether, when you were studying international law, what are the surprises you've had when you actually get into the field and you practice it? I know you've worked in Afghanistan as well as Myanmar. What would you say to people about the difference between the law in theory and the law in practice?

FIROUZEH: There is a huge difference, obviously. I mean, our job is to promote the law, but most of the dialogue and discussions that we have with the groups is the practical scenarios that they face. So it's a lot of role-play exercises of—a hospital has been occupied, and you have enemy soldiers that are inside, and you want to attack that. How do you deal with that situation? And sometimes, especially for international humanitarian law, it's not always black and white. There's a lot of areas where you need to be very well understanding of the situation, and have also the military perspective as well as the legal perspective. And the thing that I appreciate the most about Geneva Call is that we are able to adapt our training materials to also bring in that practical perspective. Because I think if we just brought to them, okay, the Geneva Conventions say this and say that, it would be too disconnected from the context that they are living in and fighting in. And they would more likely to say that, okay, this is Geneva law—this is not related to us. Whereas, I think when you bring the practical perspective into it, then they can see, okay, this is something that also we can apply.

HELEN: Wonderful. I’ve had that experience myself as an international lawyer talking with groups in the Pacific. And you talk about the Geneva Conventions, and they say, oh, that's chocolate and cuckoo clocks. It's far away from our reality. So I think, as you've expressed so beautifully, it's bringing it back to the practical and what it can do to help them. But what have you learned on the job that you weren't prepared for? What was the surprise?

FIROUZEH: I think, especially in a context like Myanmar, it's very hard to predict the future in general, but it's very hard to even plan a month or two ahead. The conflict is very intense, and there's a lot of changing territorial control. One time an area is safe and the next time that area is in the hot bed for the conflict. So I think that's been the main thing for me—to be adaptable. That if, for example, we're not able to run our programming for six months in an area, that we're still able to carry out our programming elsewhere, or we're able to maybe adapt the kinds of activities that we do. So I think that's the most crucial thing.

HELEN: So you have to be able to plan for the unplanned. So you've talked about the context, the aims of Geneva Call. But I'm wondering if we could narrow down for a moment, and if you could talk to us a little bit about what does your day look like, day to day.

FIROUZEH: So my day to day is not so glamorous. As a country director, I think in a context like Myanmar, security is really the most important. So we have different team members on the ground that are doing great work, but also taking great risks at the same time. And so my day-to-day job is really working on ensuring that they're safe, making sure that they are able to travel safely to locations, that we are doing proper risk management. So that's the majority life, I think, of a country director, especially in these more high-risk contexts, is really making sure that your team are safe and have as much wellbeing as possible in these kinds of contexts.

HELEN: What sort of challenges do your colleagues face, particularly local staff?

FIROUZEH: I think the main risk in a context like Myanmar, but also elsewhere, is that our work might not be accepted by all, and there's then a risk of, for example, detention or arrest or...worse, let's say. So I think that's something that we have to keep in mind when we carry out [our work]. It's not like everyone is going to say, ‘Okay, welcome. Come train us on the law.’ But there might be skepticism about the kind of work that we do, and the lack of trust that we don't have the correct aims. That's the main thing. And then obviously, working in a high-risk context, you have a conflict going on. There's armed hostilities, there's air strikes, so you have that already on top of the initial risks. And then right now we have the rainy season, it's the typhoon season. So you have on top of that, there's landslides and there is flooding and you're not able to get to activities. So it's a huge combination of factors that you have to address from multiple angles.

HELEN: Great. Thank you. Perhaps, what is something you would like people to know about the situation in Myanmar. Here in Australia, we get a little bit of information. But on the whole, I think people's minds are often preoccupied with the conflicts that are in the news the most. As you expressed, Myanmar is in a terrible situation. But we don't hear about it. So what would you like to leave for people to understand about that conflict?

FIROUZEH: There's a lot of frustration by the Myanmar people that it is not in the news as much as other contexts, because their conflict is one of the most intense in the world. They've now dealt with this for multiple years, if not decades, and there's a lot of drive for the local community especially to fight for their country, to fight for what they believe in, to make sure that their populations are able to survive. And I think they are also wanting for the international community to put the same kind of emphasis on what's happening in the country as with Gaza and Ukraine and Afghanistan. Even still, there is a huge amount of work that is going on by local organisations, and often it goes quite unseen. And so I think that's something that we should also highlight. It's not just the bad that happens. Yes, there's a lot, but there's also a lot of good work happening in the country to protect civilians, to make sure that those that are displaced are supported, etc. But I think this is a situation that's not going away anytime soon. I said I can't predict the future, but we don't have, let's say, the clear signs that this is something that will go away in the next few months or a year. And so I think we should be focusing on this context and try to resolve it before it leads to all of the young population without education or leaving the country because of what's happening.

HELEN: That's a really important message, so thank you for explaining it so clearly. My very final question is, what advice would you give people, particularly young people, who are interested in this area of law? As an international humanitarian lawyer myself, I get asked all the time, you know, how do you get into it? I say there's a combination of study, postgraduate study, but also doing practical work—being a volunteer, going on mission, a range of things, so you get your hands dirty as well as thinking. But what would you say to a young person who wanted to be an international humanitarian lawyer when they grew up?

FIROUZEH: I think to be prepared to not go on the straight path. That was also the experience for myself. I did study law, and I did my masters in transitional justice. So I did the study path, and then I had some different experiences. But when I started in Geneva Call, it wasn't like I was all of a sudden a country director. I started in more supporting the different country missions in the Eurasia region, then working more in program development. So it wasn't an obvious path for me, that I was just working on law the whole time. And I also had my moments where I thought, ‘Okay, I'm not using my law degree at this moment, what's happening? Am I on the right path?’ But I think you always find your way, especially if you find an organisation that you believe in and you like their work. I think there's an opportunity that even if you don't start with precisely the job that you have in mind, that you can at least work your way to get there. So I think just to not be disappointed and to not just go for the legal advisor role with ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross], for example. It's an important role, but I think there's a lot of different paths that you can get to become an international humanitarian lawyer.

HELEN: Very wise, wise words. So, thank you so much for spending some moments with us today, and I look forward to seeing the work of Geneva Call in Myanmar get stronger and stronger. So thank you very much.

FIROUZEH: Thank you very much.

SALLY: Well Helen, Firouzeh has explained Geneva Call’s work in Myanmar really well.

HELEN: Indeed she did. And I think it's wonderful when we get to do a deep dive into the work of an organisation such as Geneva Call. That sort of work is replicated across the globe, from Ukraine to Sudan. So I think it was a real treat to hear a little bit more nuance in what it means to try and influence non-state armed groups.

SALLY: Thanks for joining me again on the podcast. I also wanted to talk to you about international humanitarian law more broadly. So according to Geneva Academy, there are more than 114 armed conflicts being observed in the world right now. We know 2023 was the deadliest year on record for humanitarian workers, with more than 280 killed and many more wounded or kidnapped. However, let's be clear, humanitarian workers are, in fact, civilians, and the United Nations alone recorded more than 33,000 civilian deaths in armed conflict in 2023. That's 72 per cent more than 2022—a horrifying increase. So, with that in mind and considering these statistics, particularly the enormous increase in civilian deaths in the last couple of years, what's your response to this? And what would you say is the state of IHL in today's conflicts?

HELEN: Thank you, Sally. And indeed, this is a question almost worthy of a podcast in and of itself. My first point has to be that the statistics you read out and the reality on the ground is unacceptable. We've always had horrific suffering during times of armed conflict. However, today we have better knowledge. We have better capacities. So, to me, the statistics are something that we really need to push against hard and say, ‘This is not the norm. This is something we need to change.’ So that's my first point. My second point is that it's really unfortunate—and I don't think very useful—when I hear commentators blaming, ‘It's about the law. The law isn't working.’ The law is a framework which allows certain behaviors. There is a lot of law, and if the law was followed, if there was the capacity or the appetite to distinguish between civilians and combatants, to allow humanitarian workers to have safe passage and do their life-saving job, to ensure that there is respect for women, children and the elderly, we wouldn't be in this situation. So I'd say the state of IHL today: the law itself is strong. Where we are lacking is its application. And I would even say a political discourse globally to stand up and push and say this is unacceptable. And so I think in answering your question, there is nothing about the law that is problematic. There are areas we can tighten up. I think we could do more in the interface between international humanitarian law and refugee law, environmental law. So there's areas, of course, that we can always improve. But what we really need to lean into is the application and the appetite that this is not acceptable.

SALLY: Yes, I think that sounds fair. And I think as well, in Australia at least, we can see there is some appetite with this resurgence of IHL in the new humanitarian policy that's been released by DFAT. So, I guess for me, that offers some hope, but there's a lot of work to be done

HELEN: Absolutely. For those of us who care about the state of the world, and as I'm sure everyone listening to the podcast, the status quo is never good enough. At the same time, to take a cynical attitude that it's not worthy and we'll all let it go, does not give the future the respect it deserves. And indeed, I know RedR Australia was so delighted to see in the new humanitarian policy a real surge on the importance of international humanitarian law. These laws have been around for 150 years. They have saved numerous lives. You don't know exactly how many, because you're finding out what didn't happen because of correct use of the law. But I think we really need to, particularly in our sector, encourage better understanding of these very precious, I would say, rules.

SALLY: That makes sense, too. So, what do you think humanitarian development workers should know about IHL? Or, should I say, why do you think they should know about IHL and human rights before they go into the field?

HELEN: Well, the starting point is also, I think everyone should know about their human rights and international humanitarian law, a bit like the, as you express, the civilians as a wide group, and then humanitarian workers as a smaller part of that. I always say you've got to know it before you need to use it. You cannot do a fire drill in the middle of a fire. So I think your emphasis on what they need to know before they go in, as they're thinking about that work, is really important. I think there's key principles, and we won't have time to go into them here, but I know that RedR [Australia] is looking at doing some further training in this space. Principles around distinction; the requirement to distinguish between civilians and those actively engaged or directly engaged in hostilities; elements such as the right of the families to know the fate of the dead or the loved ones that are missing. It's really important as humanitarians go into situations, and those working on development, that they understand what has that country where they are, often called the host country, what have they agreed to? What sort of laws have they said they will respect? Now, in all my experience of being in the field, and I've had the great fortune of being in many countries across the globe, you don't have an academic discourse with those you're trying to influence, but you do need to know in your back pocket if you're at a checkpoint, you do need to know what the requirements are so you're able to frame how you engage. You do need to know when you're talking to authorities or the local communities, what are their rights and what are the authorities obliged to provide? So without going into details of the specific provisions, I think it's really, really important that humanitarian and development workers as part of the community know this work, that they know it before they go in, and that they're able to use the tools that are out there. I mean, the Australian Red Cross has done an amazing booklet on humanitarian principles and law for humanitarian workers. But there are websites, there are documents. So people need to go in armed. Every humanitarian and development worker needs to know about their own security, and they need to understand the legal framework within which they're working.

SALLY: I think that's great, because anything that enables people to be better prepared is going to be the right way to send them out into the field. Thank you so much, once again, for your generous time. You know, I hope this has helped people listening to get a better understanding of IHL, the critical need for it, and just how difficult it is in a world of so many conflicts.

HELEN: Thanks so much, Sally. It's always a pleasure and I always learn a lot myself, and it's been a great experience being involved in this podcast. So, thank you.

SALLY: Thank you. You've been listening to Humanitarian Conversations, a podcast by RedR Australia. You can learn more about our work at redr.org.au and we invite you to join our conversations on LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook. This episode was produced and engineered by Jill Farrar. I'm Sally Cunningham, thanks for listening.

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